NOW DEBATES ON HOW THE COVID PANDEMIC BEGAN HAVE BEEN REIGNITED FOLLOWING THE INTENSE SENATE HEARING LAST WEEK.

IT POINTS TO A BIGGER FEAR AND WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES WHAT COULD BE OUR GREATEST OVERALL THREAT, BIOLOGICAL WEAPON T IS THE FOCUS OF ANNIE JACOBSON'S NEW BOOK AND SHE JOINS US TO DISCUSS.

>> THANK YOU.

AND ANNIE JACOBSON WELCOME TO THE SHOW >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK, BIOLOGICAL WAR IS LIKE A PREVIOUS BOOK "NUCLEAR WAR SCENARIO" YOU DO IT AS A SCENARIO, EXPLAIN WHY IT AND WHY YOU CHOSE THAT FORMAT?

>> AS A NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER MY FIRST SIX BOOKS WERE WRITTEN IN THE PAST TENSE, THEY WERE ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED.

NUCLEAR WAR A SCENARIO AND BIOLOGICAL WAR A SCENARIO TAKES THE READER THROUGH A HYPE HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION AND IT IS BASED ON WAR GAMING AND CASE OF BIO ON PANDEMIC PLAN THAT IS DONE BY PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS.

>> LET ME READ YOU A SENTENCE FROM THE BOOK.

IT IS FROM THE EPILOG OF THE BOOK.

THE RELEASE OF A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON EVEN BY ACCIDENT COULD BE THE FINAL FAILURE OF THE HUMAN IMAGINATION, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> WELL, THAT IS A QUOTE I AM ECHOING NICK BROSTROM, THE IDEA OF A.I.

HE SPOKE OF, I THINK 10 YEARS AGO.

I FIND THAT WITH BIO IT IS BECOMING OR COULD BECOME A REALITY A LOT FASTER THAN ANY OF US WOULD WANT TO THINK.

YOU KNOW, WE KNOW FROM THE COVID PANDEMIC THAT A BIOLOGICAL CATASTROPHE IS NO LONGER THEORETICAL.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IN THE AT THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AND AT FEMA AND AT HHS, THEY TALK ABOUT A BIOLOGICAL CATASTROPHE AS NOT JUST BEING AN ATTACK WITH THE BIOLOGICAL WEAPON BUT A LAB LEAK, AN ACCIDENT IN ONE OF THESE BSL-3 OR BSL-4 FACILITY THAT POPULATE THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

>> THAT POSSIBILITY THAT COVID WAS A LAB LEAK WAS SO MUCH IN THE NEWS THIS PAST WEEK WHETHER DR.

ANTHONY FAUCI WAS ON.

I KNOW IT IS NOT PART OF YOUR BOOK, WHAT DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR EXPERTISE, WAS IT A LAB LEAK OR NATURAL OCCURRENCE?

>> WELL, THANK YOU POINTING OUT IN MY BOOK I DON'T STEER IT.

I WANT TO LOOK AT THE WHOLE STORY THAT COULD LANE AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES.

AND THE REALITY OF PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTOOD ABOUT A LAB LEAK THAT WAS A FAR MORE PLAUSIBLE SITUATION THAN A RELEASE FROM A WET MARKET.

YOU KNOW, I THINK MOST IMPORTANT POINT OF ALL OF THAT AND OF COURSE THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE TIMING.

IT IS CRAZY WHEN NUCLEAR WAR A SCENARIO CAME OUT IT WAS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF PUTIN MAKING THREATS HE IS GOING TO MAKE IT.

AND TIMING IS FAVORING MY BOOKS.

AND IT IS WHAT IT MOVING TODAY, AND IT IS IN PARCEL TO ALL OF THIS, YOU KNOW, YES, I WRITE THAT VERY LINE THAT IS A SPOILER ALERT.

AND BY THE END I SAY POINT IF IT IS NOT PANIC T IS PRESSURE.

AND I HOPE THAT WHAT IS REVEALED ABOUT THE PUBLIC BEING MISLED ABOUT THE SCIENCE BEHIND THE LAB LEAK WOULD REALLY MAKE PEOPLE WANT TO BETTER INFORM THEMSELVES.

AND IT IS RIGHT THERE.

IF IT WAS A LAB LEAK.

IT WAS NOT INTENTIONAL.

AND IT IS PLAUSIBLE SCENARIO THAT THEY ARE EXPERIMENTING WITH THIS, THEY WILL BE LOOKING AT POSSIBLE BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AND SOMEHOW, JUST LIKE A.I.

MIGHT GET OUT OF THE SANDBOX AND GET OUT OF CONTROL, A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON WILL.

>> I THINK YOU TOUCHED UPON THE REAL HEART OF THE MATTER OR THE DARK HEART OF THE MARK T IS CALLED DARK BIOLOGY.

REMINDER, THE WEAPON ARE ILLEGAL, THE BIOLOGICAL WAR IS ILLEGAL.

UNLIKE THE WEAPON THAT ARE NOT ILLEGAL TO THOSE NATIONS THAT HOLD THEM.

THE REASON THEY ARE LEGAL IS BECAUSE OF A TREATY THAT IS SIGNED BY ALL OF THE NATIONS ESSENTIALLY IN 1972.

BUT, THERE IS A LOOPHOLE IN THAT TREATY THAT ALLOWS FOR SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH FOR USE.

A FANCY WORD FOR TRYING TO MAKE MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURES TO COMBAT DANGEROUS WEAPONS AND THERE IS THE PARADOX ABOUT GENETIC MODIFICATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON IN THESE LABS, WHAT DEFINES BIOLOGICAL WEAPON ENGINEERING AND WHAT DEFINES RESEARCH FOR MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURES.

AND I CERTAINLY PRESENT TO READERS IN THE BOOK THE, YOU KNOW, WHAT SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS, WHAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING TO TRY TO KEEP BIOLOGICAL WEAPON OUT OF THE HANDS OF BAD GUYS FOR DECADES NOW.

THINK ABOUT ALL OF THERE AND HOW DANGEROUS THEY ACTUALLY THINK GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH IS AND NEEDS TO REALLY BE LOOKED AT BY ALL OF US BECAUSE IT THREATENS ALL OF US.

>> WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ALL OF US WHAT GAIN OF FUNCTION IS?

WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THE WUHAN LAB WHERE COVID MAY OF ORIGINATED?

AND HOW IS IT DIFFERENT FROM, SAY, GENETIC MODIFICATION?

>> WELL, GAIN OF FUNCTION IS ACTUALLY EXACTLY LIKE IT SOUNDS YOU ARE TRYING TO GAIN THE FUNCTION OF A PATHOGEN, SO, IT IS A VIRUS OR A BACTERIA, PEOPLE THINK BACTERIAL PATHOGENS ARE NOT AS DANGEROUS BECAUSE ANTIBIOTICS ALL BUT WIPED OUT, YOU KNOW, THE DANGEROUS BACTERIA EPIDEMICS, HOWEVER, WITH GAIN OF FUNCTION, WITH GIVING A NEW FUNCTION TO A PATHOGEN IN A LAB WHICH IS REALLY A SYNONYM FOR GENETIC ENGINEERING, YOU CAN BEAT A MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURE THAT ALREADY EXISTS.

SO, WE KNOW ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE, A FAMOUS MOUSE POX EXPERIMENT AND H5N1 FARRET FLU.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT YOU CAN TRAIN OR TEACH OR MODIFY.

AND IT IS A FACE OF FATALITY OF 1%.

AND IT IS 100% AND TO DEFEAT COUNTERMEASURES, THOSE ARE ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE UNDER IT, NOT EVEN THE GUISE OF FUNCTION, THAT IS ACTUALLY WHAT YOU DO IN GAIN OF FUNCTION, THE ARGUMENT IS, WHICH ACTUALLY, DOCTOR FAUCI SAID HIMSELF BACK IN 2012 THAT, YOU KNOW, SPECIFICALLY THAT HE SAID THAT THE RISK AND THE REWARDS OUT WEIGH THE RISKS.

AND IT IS TO BE RECONSIDERED.

>> WOULD YOU BAN GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH?

>> WELL, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ASK ME, RIGHT NOW THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION HAS STOPPED ALL GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH.

WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN ISSUE, PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA PUT A MORATORIUM ON GAIN OF FUNCTION EXPERIMENTS BACK IN THE EARLY DAYS OF HIS ADMINISTRATION.

SO, THE IDEA THAT IT IS POLITICALIZED IT IS JUST SORT OF A FUNCTION OF, I THINK, REALLY UNFORTUNATE FUNCTION OF WHERE WE ARE AS A SOCIETY TODAY.

THAT IT IS NOT, YOU KNOW, IT IS NOT THE SCIENCE THAT IS AT ISSUE IT IS THE POLITICALIZATION OF SCIENCE, DISGUISED AS SOMETHING ELSE.

THAT IS DANGEROUS FOR ALL OF >> WELL, YOU SAY, THAT THE U.S.

NOW BANNED GAIN OF FUNCTION RESEARCH.

BUT, OF COURSE, THE WUHAN LAB IS IN CHINA AND EVEN THOUGH THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT, CHINA WAS DOING GAIN OF FUNCTION.

IS THERE ANY WAY TO STOP THEM?

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THAT IS THE CATCH-22.

THAT IS THE ARGUMENT ABOUT WHY SOME SCIENTISTS WILL TELL YOU GAIN OF FUNCTION IS NECESSARY, GENETIC MODIFICATION.

WHAT I LEARNED IN WRITING "NUCLEAR WAR SCENARIO," YOU KNOW, WALTER I WAS INVITED TO GO TO THE VATICAN TO TALK TO THE POPE AND UNITED NATIONS TO TALK ABOUT IT AND THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND WHAT THIS WAS, WAS A REAL EYE- OPENING EXPERIENCE FOR ME.

THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHAT CAN BE DONE.

TREATIES, DIPLOMATS, THIS IS PART AND PARTIAL TO THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, WE ARE OUT OF THE ALL NUCLEAR TREATIES, NUCLEAR TREATIES ALLOW TRANSPARENCY, ALLOW DIPLOMACY AND CONVERSATION, BIOLOGICAL WAR HAS NO TREATY, IT HAS A TREATY BUT NO METHOD FOR ENFORCEMENT BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL.

SO, I THINK THIS IS A BRILLIANT OPPORTUNITY TO ENTER INTO A NEW TREATY ABOUT BIOLOGICAL ENGINEERING.

AND THEN YOU MAY BE CAN GET SOME MOVEMENT BETWEEN CHINA AND RUSSIA AND MOVEMENT BETWEEN DIP PLATS AND BETWEEN SCIENTISTS BECAUSE WHAT I LEARNED FROM SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD IS THAT OVER THE DECADES IT IS ALWAYS THE SCIENTIST WORKING ON WHAT IS KNOWN AS TRACK TWO.

THAT ARE ABLE TO REALLY HELP THE DIPLOMATS GET THESE TREATIES ON THE TABLE AND THEN ULTIMATELY ENFORCE THEM.

>> BUT, ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BIOLOGICAL WEAPON AND NUCLEAR WEAPON IS NORMAL PERSON COULD CREATE A NUCLEAR WEAPON IN THEIR BASEMENT.

IN FACT, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CREATE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND IT IS HARD TO HIDE THE FACT THAT YOU ARE DOING IT AS WE HAVE SEEN WITH IRAN AND OTHER PLACES.

BUT BIOLOGICAL WEAPON CAN'T THAT BE DONE IN SECRET WITHOUT HUGE FACILITIES?

>> IT IS ONE OF THE REASONS JUDGE THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WHILE IT LIST NUCLEAR WEAPON AS THE MOST DANGEROUS, IT LIST BIOLOGICAL AS THE GREATEST OVERALL THREAT.

FOR PRECISELY THE REASON YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

THERE IS AN INCREDIBLY LOW BARRIER TO ENTRY.

UNLIKE NUCLEAR WEAPON, NOT ONLY DO YOU NEED MATERIAL, LOOK AT HOW HARD IT IS WITH IRAN WHAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH BUT NOW, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A WEAPON DELIVERY SYSTEM, ICBM OR A SUBMARINE OR A BOMBER TO DELIVER A NUCLEAR WEAPON TO A TARGET.

A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON IS ALIVE.

THE WEAPON SYSTEM, WALTER, IF IT IS AIRBORNE THAT IS WHAT ALL OFFICIALS ARE AFRAID OF, ARE THE HUMAN LUNGS.

THAT SHOULD SCARE THE BEJESUS OUT OF ANYBODY AND SCARE THEM INTO ACTION.

>> WHAT ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?

HOW MUCH IS A.I.

MAKING IT MUCH EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO SAY, HERE IS HOW I WOULD MODIFY THIS PATHOGEN TO MAKE IT A WEAPON AND SHOW THEM, YOU KNOW, EVEN IF THEY TRY TO PUT GUARDRAILS ON IT TO SHOW A NORMAL CITIZEN OR FOR THAT MATTER, A BAD ORGANIZATION, A.I.

CAN TEACH YOU HOW TO MAKE A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON.

>> THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE THREAT RIGHT NOW.

THAT THREAT IS ONLY GETTING BIGGER, LITERALLY BY THE TIME WE GET OFF THE AIR IT WILL BE AN EVEN BIGGER THREAT THAN WHETHER WE GOT ON.

IT IS BECAUSE SCIENCE IS MOVING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHTNING, AND, THE SYSTEMS THAT ARE IN PLACE TO MONITOR THEM ARE MOVING AT THE OLD PACE OF, YOU KNOW, ANALOG DEMOCRACY, FROM MY CONVERSATIONS WITH BOTH CEOs OF SOME OF THE A.I.

COMPANIES AND DARPA, THAT IS THE DEFENSE ADVANCED RESEARCH PROJECT AGENCY THAT IS REALLY TRYING TO DEAL WITH THERE A.I.

ENABLED BIO-THREAT CONCEPT.

THERE IS THE BIGGEST THREAT WE IMMEDIATELY, THE BIGGEST THREAT IN TERMS OF A.I.

RIGHT NOW THAT IS HOW IT IS BEING SEEN AND POSITIONED.

>> WHAT WE HAVE SEEN WITH DR.

ANT FLEE FAUCI, TESTIFYING IN ALL OF IT, ONCE AGAIN, THE EXPLOSION OF CONTROVERSY AROUND THE COVID PANDEMIC WAS THAT, THAT PANDEMIC CAUSED PEOPLE TO LOSE FAITH TO TRUST WHAT THE GOVERNMENT MIGHT SAY.

HOW CAN THAT GET A RESPONSE TO A BIOLOGICAL ATTACK.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

IT FRACTURED TRUST AND SCIENCE CERTAINLY AMONG AMERICANS.

BUT, IT ALSO SHOWED US DESPITE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BEING SPENT ON BIO-DEFENSE IN THE BOOK I LIKE TAKE READERS VERY QUICKLY THROUGH THE BUILD UP OF BIODEFENSE AFTER SEPTEMBER 11 AND WHERE WE ARE WITH IT TODAY.

SO, DESPITE ALL OF THIS MONEY AND EFFORT WE WERE COMPLETELY UNPREPARED FOR COVID.

SO, THOSE TWO COMPONENTS TOGETHER FRACTURED TRUST WITH LACK OF PREPAREDNESS.

NONE OF WHICH IS SORT OF IMPACTED BY THE AMOUNT OF MONEY SPENT.

INDICATE THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY LET'S SPEND IT IN AN AREA WHERE THE PUBLIC BENEFITS.

>> WHEREVER WE TALK ABOUT NUCLEAR SCENARIOS, WE TALK ABOUT THE DEFENSE AGAINST THEM.

LIKEWISE, A.I., WE TALK ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO TO PREVENT A.I.

ATTACK.

WHAT WAYS ARE THERE TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF A BIOLOGICAL WEAPON?

ARE WE DEVELOPING?

TALKING ABOUT PENCILLIAN AND OTHERS PROTECTING US FROM INFECTION, CAN THEY PREVENT THINGS THAT ARE WILL STOP PATHOGENS?

>> THERE ARE A SUBSET OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE AN IDEA ABOUT THEM.

I REFERENCE THEM IN MY ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS.

I INTERVIEWED A LOT OF THEM.

THEY ARE WORKING ON MEDICAL COUNTERMEASURES THAT USE A.I.

AND BIO-TECHNOLOGY TO COME UP WITH THE IDEAS.

I DID NOT WANT TO PRESENT THAT UTOPIAN IDEA.

IN MY IDEA FOR REPORTER IT IS NEW AND I AM NOT CLEAR, I AM NOT CLEAR THAT THAT ACTUALLY IS A SOLUTION OR THE OTHER QUESTION IS, IS IT PART OF THE SORT OF BIO-TECHNOLOGY MILITARY INDUSTRIAL, I DON'T KNOW.

THERE ARE CERTAINLY A LOT OF ANSWERS OUT THERE.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

IT IS BEST SUMMED UP BY A QUOTE FROM RETIRED COLONEL WHO RAN THESE CATASTROPHIC NUCLEAR AND BIOLOGICAL WAR GAMES OUT OF THE OFFICE OF SECRETARY IN DEFENSE UNDER A LEGENDARY AND FAMOUS ANDY MARSHALL AND HIS ASSESSMENT.

WHAT HE TOLD ME IS THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO OR THERE IS VERY LITTLE YOU CAN DO REGARDING HOMELAND DEFENSE IN THE EVENT OF A BIOLOGICAL INCIDENT OR ATTACK.

ONLY THINGS TO MITIGATE EXTERMINATION.

THOSE ARE HIS WORDS.

AND, WHEN YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT THAT, I BELIEVE AND IT IS COMING AND REALIZING THANKS TO THE PANDEMIC WE ARE ALL GOING TO BE IMPACTED BY THE RELEASE OF ONE OF THESE NIGHTMARE GERMS.

SO, THEREFORE, WHY DON'T WE ALL BEGIN TO LOOK AT HOW TO ENFORCE GUARDRAILS TO MAKE SURE THIS KIND OF THING NEVER HAPPENS.

>> ANNIE JACOBSON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.