>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

STRIKES ON IRAN CONTINUE AS ISRAEL PLUNGES THE MIDDLE EAST INTO DANGEROUS NEW TERRITORY.

WE ASK KEY EXPERTS AND INSIDERS WHERE ALL OF THIS IS HEADED.

FIRST I'LL SPEAK TO THE FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, EHUD BARAK.

THEN WITH IRAN THREATENING TO HOLD ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES FULLY ACCOUNTABLE, REGIONAL EXPERT SANAM VAKIL JOINS ME.

AND AS TRUMP WANTS TO MAKE A DEAL BEFORE IT, QUOTE, TOO LATE, I GET ANALYSIS FROM WENDY SHERMAN.

SHE WAS THE COUNTRY'S TOP NEGOTIATOR ON THE 2015 IRAN NUCLEAR AGREEMENT.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE WORLD BRACES FOR RETALIATION AFTER ISRAEL LAUNCHES ONGOING STRIKES ON MILITARY AND NUCLEAR TARGETS INSIDE IRAN.

THE SIZE AND SCALE OF THE ATTACKS WERE UNPRECEDENTED.

200 FIGHTER JETS DROPPING MORE THAN 300 VARIOUS MUNITIONS, ACCORDING TO ISRAEL, STRUCK MORE THAN 100 TARGETS ACROSS IRAN.

IRAN'S HIGHEST RANKING MILITARY OFFICERS ARE DEAD, AS ARE A NUMBER OF COMMANDERS AND NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS.

IT'S BEEN THE LONG-TIME MISSION OF THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU CLAIMS THE ATTACK ROLLS BACK THE THREAT TO ISRAEL'S SURVIVAL.

>> TODAY OUR STRONG AND COURAGEOUS SOLDIERS AND PEOPLE STAND TOGETHER TO DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST THOSE WHO SEEK OUR DESTRUCTION.

AND BY DEFENDING OURSELVES, WE DEFEND MANY OTHERS AND WE ROLL BACK THE MURDEROUS TYRANNY.

GENERATIONS FROM NOW, HISTORY WILL RECORD THAT OUR GENERATION STOOD ITS GROUND, ACTED IN TIME, AND SECURED OUR COMMON FUTURE.

IN RECENT YEARS, IRAN HAS PRODUCED ENOUGH HIGH-ENRICHED URANIUM FOR NINE ATOM BOMBS.

NINE.

IRAN HAS TAKEN STEPS THAT IT HAS NEVER TAKEN BEFORE.

STEP TO WEAPONIZE THIS ENRICHED URANIUM AND IF NOT STOPPED, IRAN COULD PRODUCE A NUCLEAR WEAPON IN A VERY SHORT TIME.

IT COULD BE A YEAR.

IT COULD BE WITHIN A FEW MONTHS.

LESS THAN A YEAR.

THIS IS A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER TO ISRAEL'S VERY SURVIVAL.

>> NOW ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT SAYS THEY NEED TO PREPARE FOR A PROLONGED OPERATION.

HERE'S THE IRANIAN PRESIDENT.

>> Translator: THE GOVERNMENT OF IRAN ONCE AGAIN PROVED THE AGGRESSION AND BARBARISM OF THE REGIME AND A GOVERNMENT OF IRAN WILL NOT STAY SILENT AGAINST THE ZIONIST REGIME.

A STRONG AND CAT GOOD MORNING RESPONSE OF IRAN WILL MAKE THE ENEMY REGRET ITS ACTIONS.

>> IRAN IS CLEAR, RETALIATION WON'T STOP WITH ISRAEL.

IRAN'S MISSION TO THE UNITED NATIONS POSTED THIS ON SOCIAL MEDIA TODAY.

THE ISRAELI REGIME AND ITS BACKER, NAMELY THE UNITED STATES, SHALL BE HELD FULLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THESE BLATANT VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THEIR GRAVE CONSEQUENCES.

EHUD BARAK WAS ISRAEL'S PRIME MINISTER.

HE'S BEEN ITS FOREIGN MINISTER AND CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES, AS WELL AS MINISTER OF DEFENSE WHEN HE DIRECTED ISRAEL'S 2007 ATTACK ON A NUCLEAR REACTOR IN SYRIA.

NOW BARAK SAYS HE SEES A LONG AND DIFFICULT WAR AHEAD AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

TELL ME WHAT YOU SEE NEXT AND HOW YOU REACT TO THIS AND WHY DO YOU THINK IT HAPPENED NOW?

>> IT'S HAPPENING NOW BECAUSE OUR INTELLIGENCE SHOWED THAT THE IRANIANS ARE ESCALATING THEIR EFFORT TO OVERCOME TOWARD NUCLEAR CAPABILITY, NAMELY THE WEAPONIZATION.

IT IS CALLED THE DECLARATION OF THE NUCLEAR WEAPON.

AND YOU CANNOT WAIT TOO LONG BEFORE THEY WILL TURN INTO NUCLEAR POWER.

BEYOND IT, IT IS INCREASED PACE OF PRODUCING LONG-RANGE HEAVY MISSILES WHICH WHILE IT IS COUNTED IN THE NUMBER OF MANY THOUSANDS, IT HAS BECOME QUITE SEVER SEVERE.

I THINK THAT IS CLEAR AND YOU KNOW, THE FIRST WAS IN KUWAIT.

AN IMPRESSIVE OPERATION ON SUCCESS.

IT IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT TO ISRAEL BECAUSE THE SAME BRANCH OF THE INTELLIGENCE FADES SO DRAMATICALLY ON OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

>> YES.

OKAY.

SO AVENGING THAT TERRIBLE MOMENT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS.

YOU WERE AN ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER DURING THE TIME IN IRAQ.

THAT WAS OBLITERATED BEFORE IT BECAME OPERATIONAL.

IN 2007 YOU WERE DEFENSE MINISTER WHEN ISRAEL BOMBED A SECRET AND HIDDEN NASCENT REACTOR BEING BUILT IN SYRIA.

AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU AS PRIME MINISTER HAD EVER TRIED TO BOMB IRAN AND TRIED TO GET THE U.S. TO AGREE WITH YOU.

IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES.

WE KNOW NETANYAHU HAS BEFORE.

>> WHEN I WAS PRIME MINISTER, THE IRANIANS WERE IN A VERY ELEMENTARY STAGE, JUST TAKING THE URANIUM AND TRYING TO PRODUCE WHAT IS CALLED YELLOW CAKE.

IT WAS TOO FAR FROM ANYTHING CONCRETE THAT POINTED TO NUCLEAR MILITARY PROBLEM.

I WAS ALSO MINISTER OF DEFENSE FOR NETANYAHU AFTER DEFEATED IN THE ELECTION FOR PRIME MINISTER.

AND THAT TIME IN 2010, 2011, MAYBE 2012, WE CONSIDERED VERY SERIOUSLY, MYSELF, NETANYAHU AND ANOTHER TO CONVINCE THE CABINET TO LAUNCH AN ATTACK ON THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR PROBLEM.

AT THE TIME WE BELIEVED WE CAN DELAY THEM BY TWO AND A HALF TO THREE AND A HALF YEARS.

THAT WAS THE OPERATION.

WE CONNECTICUT VINCE EVEN THE CABINET OF OUR GOVERNMENT AND THE DEMOCRACY, IT'S NOT ENOUGH WE ARE CONVINCED.

WE HAVE TO CONVINCE THE MAJORITY.

THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT.

FROM THE ASAAD -- BOTH IRAQ AND SYRIA SHOWED WHAT IS CALLED THE PLUTONIUM PROJECT WEAPON WHICH MAKES A PRECONDITION OF HAVING A REACTOR WHICH IS ALWAYS OVER THE GROUND.

ONCE YOU DESTROY IT, IT DELAYS THEM BY SEVERAL YEARS.

>> SO THAT'S INTERESTING.

SO WHAT CAN YOUR FORCES DO?

YOU ARE VERY FAMILY WITH WHAT POWER ISRAEL HAS.

WHAT CAN THEY DO AGAINST THE, YOU KNOW, THE MAJORITY OF THE IRAN NUCLEAR PROGRAM?

APPARENTLY, A LOT OF CENTRIFUGES ARE UNDERGROUND.

THE IRANIANS SAY THAT DAMAGE HAS SO FAR BEEN SUPERFICIAL.

WE'VE SEEN NO BDA, BATTLE DAMAGE ASSESSMENT ON THAT.

AND IT IS EVEN MORE HARDENED AND MORE UNDERGROUND.

WE'VE BEEN TOLD IT CAN'T HAPPEN WITHOUT SPECIAL U.S. MEGA BOMBS.

CAN YOU TELL US?

>> YEAH.

IN MY JUDGMENT, IT IS NOT A SECRET THAT ISRAEL ALONE CANNOT DELAY THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM OF IRAN BY A SIGNIFICANT TIME PERIOD.

PROBABLY SEVERAL WEEKS.

EVEN THE U.S.

CANNOT DELAY THEM BY MORE THAN A FEW MONTHS.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IMMEDIATELY THEY WILL HAVE IT.

PROBABLY CREATE A CRUDE NUCLEAR DEVICE TO EXPLODE IT IN THE DESERT TO SHOW THE WHOLE WORLD WHERE THEY ARE.

IT IS CLEAR TO ME DESPITE THE ACHIEVEMENTS UNTIL NOW, WE CANNOT SAY THAT WE DELAYED THEM SIGNIFICANTLY.

IF YOU MENTIONED -- PROBABLY BEYOND OUR CAPACITY TO REALLY PENETRATE, AND THE REALITY, JUST TWO DAYS AGO, THAT THE MOST SENSITIVE ELEMENTS OF THE IRANIAN MILITARY PROGRAM ARE BURIED HUNDREDS OF YARDS UNDER THE SURFACE.

IN SOME REMOTE, DESERTED MINE AND SO ON.

BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAVE ABOUT 400 KILOGRAMS OF ENRICHED URANIUM TO 60%, WHICH STILL HAS TO BE PUSHED TO 20, TO WEAPONS GRADE, OVER 90, BUT THAT'S AN EASY PROCESS IN ANY GARAGE WITH ENOUGH -- >> SO WHAT'S THE POINT THEN, PRIME MINISTER?

WHAT'S THE POINT OF THIS MASS BOMBING CAMPAIGN?

WHAT IS THE POINT?

IF YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT THEY CAN POTENTIALLY ONLY DAMAGE BY A MONTH AT WORST, AND MAYBE A COUPLE OF WEEKS, WHAT IS THE POINT?

WHAT IS THE STRATEGY?

WHAT'S THE GOAL HERE?

>> IT'S PROBLEMATIC BUT IT IS STILL A POINT OF VIEW FOR ISRAEL.

INSTEAD OF SITTING IDLE, ISRAEL SEES, THE GOVERNOR SEES THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

PROBABLY TOGETHER WITH THE AMERICANS WE CAN DO MORE.

MY JUDGMENT IS THAT BECAUSE IRAN IS ALREADY, WHAT IS CALLED THRESHOLD NUCLEAR POWER, THE ONLY WAY TO BLOCK IT, IF EVEN TO IMPOSE UPON IT A CONVINCING NEW AGREEMENT, THE ALTERNATIVE, OPEN A FULL-SCALE WAR TO TOPPLE DOWN THE REGIME.

THAT'S SOMETHING WITH THE UNITED STATES WE CAN DO.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I DON'T BELIEVE ANY AMERICAN PRESIDENT, NEITHER TRUMP OR ANY ONE OF HIS PREDECESSORS WOULD HAVE DECIDED THAT.

AMERICA DIDN'T WIN IN KOREA, DIDN'T WIN VIETNAM, DIDN'T WIN IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> RIGHT.

>> I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO OPEN A FULL-SCALE WAR.

>> WHICH REALLY BEGS THE QUESTION, MR. PRIME MINISTER.

YOU'VE JUST LISTED THE NUMBER OF WARS THAT AMERICA HAS NOT WON.

YOUR OWN COUNTRY IS IN A WAR THAT IT HAS NOT WON IN GAZA.

YES, IT IS DEGRADED IRAN'S CAPABILITIES, AND NOW IT'S DONE THIS AND IT IS GOING TO GO ON FOR A WHILE, ACCORDING TO YOUR PRIME MINISTER.

IT HAS ALSO TAKEN OUT THE KEY LAYER OF MILITARY LEADERSHIP.

WHAT EFFECT DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAVE?

>> LOOK, ACTUALLY, WHAT ISRAEL WILL TELL YOU IS THAT WE DID WHATEVER WE CAN IN ORDER TO DELAY, SLOW THEM DOWN, GET THEM INTO A MORE CONVINCING AGREEMENT.

AND ISRAEL WILL TELL YOU, IT IS NOT OUR OWN.

THAT'S NOT SIMPLE.

AMERICA HAS A MAJOR ROLE.

EVEN FOR ISRAEL TO CONTINUE THE WAR FOR A LONGER TIME, FOR SEVERAL MONTHS OR SO.

WE NEED THE LOGISTIC DEPTH OF AMERICA.

IF THEY DECIDE TO OPERATE, OF COURSE, THEIR OPERATIONAL CAPABILITIES WHICH ARE MUCH WIDER THAN ISRAELI CAPABILITIES.

YOU KNOW, I STILL BEAR IN MIND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE HOUTHIS.

AFTER SOME FOUR TO SIX WEEKS, THEY DECIDED TO LEAVE.

SO WE ARE ENTERING THE FIRST 24 HOURS I DON'T KNOW WHAT ANYONE COULD GUESS.

WE ARE NOW DESTROYING THE PRODUCTION LINES OF MISSILES IN IRAN.

BUT I HAVE NO ILLUSION.

WE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED INTO THE THINKING THAT WE WILL COMPLETE IT FOR NOW, IT WILL BE PAINFUL.

THERE WILL BE UPS AND DOWNS.

AT THE END OF THE STORY IS YET UNCERTAIN.

>> WELL, YEAH.

>> I THINK THE OPPORTUNITY SHOULD BE USED TO PUT AN END TO THE WAR IN GAZA.

TO RELEASE ALL THE HOSTAGES.

TO DECIDE THAT WE END THE WAR IN GAZA AND TO TURN INTO THE OTHER POSSIBILITY OF A NEW MIDDLE EAST ORDER.

WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

IT'S NOT EASY TO DO IT AS WE EXCHANGE BLOWS WITH IRAN, BUT EVEN THE IRANIAN, THE INTENSE WAR I HOPE WILL END IN SEVERAL WEEKS.

WILL NOT DRAG.

>> WHOA!

IN GAZA OR IRAN, SEVERAL WEEKS?

>> NO, NO.

IN GAZA.

IT CAN BE OVER IN SEVERAL WEEKS.

>> OKAY.

>> IRAN DOES NOT DEVELOP INTO A WAR THAT MIGHT TAKE A YEAR OR TWO.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT GAZA.

I'VE HAD YOU ON A LOT ABOUT THAT.

AND YOU HAVE BEEN CRITICAL OF PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S WAGING THIS WAR THERE.

YOU AND OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT NETANYAHU PREFERS THE ONGOING CONFLICT TO MASK HIS LEGAL AND POLITICAL TROUBLES.

YOU'VE CALLED IT AND OTHERS HAVE CALLED IT A WAR OF DECEPTION.

ONE OF YOUR PREDECESSORS SAID THAT THIS IS NOW DEVELOPING INTO A WAR OF WAR CRIMES.

AND IT WAS WRITTEN ON X, HE WROTE ON X THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO ADDRESS THE IMPLICATIONS BEFORE THE PICTURE BECOMES CLEARER.

YOU KNOW, BASICALLY, HE'S SAYING, HE'S BASICALLY SAYING THAT THERE WAS A POLITICAL MOTIVE AS WELL FOR WHAT IS GOING ON IN IRAN NOW.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S AT ALL POSSIBLE?

>> ABOUT GAZA, I ALREADY EXPRESSED MY VIEW THAT IT IS BASICALLY A WAR OF DECEPTION.

WE DON'T NEED IT.

IN FACT, EVERY -- SHOWED THE EFFICIENCY, EFFECTIVENESS.

UNABLE TO END THIS WITH HAMAS AFTER 20 MONTHS.

THE LONGEST WAR IN OUR HISTORY.

I SEE THAT IT IS NOT A REAL WAR.

IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED MANY MONTHS AGO.

SEVERAL MONTHS AGO AT LEAST AND SHOULD BE ENDED RIGHT NOW.

ESPECIALLY WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF ATTRITION WAR WITH IRAN, AND A LONG ONE, WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER WAR IN GAZA AT THE SAME TIME.

>> YEAH.

PRIME MINISTER BARAK, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THERE'S A LOT MORE TO ASK AND WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK.

THANK YOU.

>>> MAINTAIN UNITY AND TRUST.

AND OFFICIALS.

THAT'S THE OFFICIAL MESSAGE FOR A SHORT AND FEARFUL NATION.

AFTER ISRAELI ATTACKS KILLED AT LEAST 78 PEOPLE, INCLUDING ITS TOP MILITARY CHIEFS, AND AT LEAST SIX SENIOR NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS.

IRAN HAS CALLED IN THE SWISS AMBASSADOR FOR A STERN WARNING AND A WARNING TO THE UNITED STATES ACCUSING WASHINGTON OF COMPLICITY IN ISRAEL'S ATTACK SAYING THE U.S. MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE AS WELL.

DR. SANAM VAKIL IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA PROGRAMME, CHATHAM HOUSE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WERE YOU SURPRISED BY THE TIMING?

WHAT IS YOUR ANALYSIS ABOUT ALL THAT SORT OF FLAK THAT WAS IN THE ATMOSPHERE YESTERDAY AND THE DAY BEFORE, TRUMP SAYING THIS, ISRAEL SAYING THAT, SUGGESTING THAT THERE MAY BE -- NOT PEACE TALKS BUT NUCLEAR DEAL TALKS GOING ON.

HOW DO YOU READ WHAT WAS IN THE AIR AND ONLY A FEW HOURS LATER THIS HAPPENED?

>> I THINK THE ISRAELIS AND THE U.S.

WERE CLEARLY FORESHADOWING SOMETHING WAS COMING.

FLIGHTS WERE BEING CANCELED IN IRAN, AND OF COURSE, ACROSS THE REGION.

SOMETHING WAS COMING AND I THINK THE ISRAELIS CERTAINLY HAVE MADE CLEAR THEY'VE BEEN PLANNING THIS FOR SOME TIME.

THE TIMING WAS RIGHT.

IT WAS PLANNED TO HIT JUST AFTER THE IAEA'S BOARD OF GOVERNOR'S MEETING WHERE OF COURSE, THERE HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR INDICATIONS THAT IRAN'S PROGRAM IS SERIOUSLY ADVANCED.

DIPLOMACY IS DRAGGING AND THEY CLEARLY MADE IT AN OPPORTUNITY WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO IS IMPATIENT AND WANTED A QUICK DEAL.

AND THE IRANIANS PLAYED FOR TIME AND DIDN'T DELIVER.

>> DO YOU THINK THEY OUTSMARTED THEMSELVES?

OR WHATEVER THE RIGHT THING IS, THEY MISSED AN OPPORTUNITY, PARTICULARLY AROUND THIS CONSORTIUM.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'VE READ INTO IT BUT IF YOU HAVE, PART OF THE DEAL THE U.S. WAS OFFERING WAS FOR IRAN TO BE PART OF A REGIONAL ENRICHMENT AND NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

>> I THINK THE IRANIANS CAREFULLY PUT TOGETHER THIS NEGOTIATING TEAM THINKING THEY COULD DRAG THIS ALONG IN ORDER TO EXTRACT CONCESSIONS.

THEY WANTED MORE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

EFFECTIVELY, SOME GUARANTEE OF THEIR PERMANENT RIGHT TO ENRICH WHICH THE PRESIDENT COULDN'T QUITE DELIVER.

SO THE REGIONAL CONSORTIUM WASN'T GOING TO BE AN ANSWER FOR THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC THAT DOESN'T TRUST THE REGION AND DIDN'T TRUST THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ISRAEL'S ACTUAL STRATEGY OR HIS GOALS WERE?

YOU JUST HEARD A FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER, A FORMER MEMBER OF, A MEMBER OF THE ISRAELI ARMY SAYING THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY THINK THEY CAN DO IN TERMS OF DISRUPT, DESTROY, MAYBE SET IT BACK, HE SAID A MONTH.

I WAS SHOCKED.

>> WELL, INTELLIGENCE EXPERTS HAVE INDICATED THAT.

FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW, ALL THE REPORTING, THE WAR GAMING GOING ON FOR SUCH A STRIKE OF THIS KIND HAVE CLEARLY INDICATED THAT ISRAEL ISN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO MEANINGFULLY AND INDEPENDENTLY TAKE DOWN IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

SO I THINK THERE ARE A FEW OPTIONS ON THE TABLE.

THEY'RE EITHER TRYING TO BRING THE UNITED STATES ON BOARD TO DO WHAT THEY CANNOT DO BY THEMSELVES, OR THEY'RE TRYING TO GO FOR SOMETHING MORE SERIOUS INSIDE IRAN TO BREAK THE SYSTEM.

OBVIOUSLY, THEY'VE ALREADY HUMILIATED THE SYSTEM, TAKING OUT THE CLEAR AND VERY STRONG CHAIN OF COMMAND IN AN EMBARRASSING WAY, IN A HUMILIATING WAY.

THEN THEY WANT TO FOMENT UNREST FROM WITHIN.

THAT SPEAKS AND WREAKS OF HUBRIS WHICH EHUD BARAK WARNED AGAINST.

>> IS IT REASONABLE, IS IT REALIZABLE, SOME HAVE STATED THE OBVIOUS THAT ALL THESE MILITARY COMMANDERS WHO HAVE BEEN TAKEN OUT, FROM ACROSS THE BOARD, HAS COMPLETELY COLLAPSED THE CHAIN OF COMMAND MILITARILY?

I DON'T KNOW HOW QUICKLY THEY CAN REINSTITUTE IT.

WE REMEMBER IN TRUMP 1.0, HE ORDERED IT, WE KNOW AROUND, THE PROXIES HAVE BEEN DECIMATED.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK THE CHAIN OF COMMAND HAS COLLAPSED.

IRAN IS AN INSTITUTIONALIZED STATE.

THEY'VE TRIED TO REPLACE THE KEY INDIVIDUALS ACROSS THE SYSTEM.

THEY'RE TAKING TIME TO RESPOND BECAUSE I THINK, OF COURSE, THE KEY FIGURES THAT WOULD HAVE MOUNTED THAT RESPONSE WERE TAKEN OUT.

THEY NEED TIME.

OF COURSE, THEY'RE UNDER CONTINUOUS STRIKES.

STRIKES ARE STILL UNDERWAY IN TEHRAN AND AROUND THE COUNTRY.

I THINK THEY NEED A FEW DAYS TO CONSIDER HOW THEY WILL RESPOND.

THEY WILL CERTAINLY BE A MILITARY RESPONSE FOR IRAN.

IRAN CANNOT CLIMB DOWN AND WALK AWAY FROM THIS.

>> YOU REMEMBER IT DID THAT BUT MANY MONTHS LATER.

A YEAR AGO.

ITS RESPONSES DIDN'T ACHIEVE MUCH.

THEY WERE PRETTY MUCH STOPPED ACROSS THE BOARD.

IRAN WAS, SOME SAID, REVEALED AS DEFANGED, MAYBE EVEN A PAPER TIGER.

I DON'T KNOW.

>> WELL, THEY ARE THE WEAKER PARTY AND WE KNOW THIS.

THEY KNOW THIS.

THEY DON'T HAVE CONVENTIONAL CAPABILITIES.

ISRAEL HAS CLEAR MILITARY AND INTELLIGENCE DOMINANCE.

>> AND A NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM WITH SOME HAVE ESTIMATED 100 NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

UNDECLARED.

THAT IS WAY IT IS.

>> THEY ARE THE WEAKER PARTY AND IT IS UNCLEAR WHAT THEY CAN DO ON HOW THEY CAN INFLICT DAMAGE AND WALK AWAY WITH THE SYSTEM INTACT, WITH THEIR DIGNITY INTACT, WITH THEIR LEGITIMACY INTACT.

PERHAPS FIND THEIR WAY TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE WHICH PRESIDENT TRUMP THINKS IS IN THE CARDS AS WELL.

>> THEY OBVIOUSLY WANT REGIME CHANGE.

THIS IS SOMETHING NETANYAHU HAS WANTED TO DO HIS WHOLE TIME IN OFFICE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK VIS-A-VIS THE PEOPLE?

THEY'RE UNDER DEEP, DEEP DURESS.

ENERGY IS TERRIBLE.

THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM IS TERRIBLE.

MEDICINE, EVERYTHING IS MASSIVELY EXPENSIVE.

IT IS SHOCKING.

IF YOU GO DEEPLY INTO WHAT THEY'RE SUFFERING IN TERMS OF COMPLETE CHECK CRACKDOWN AND PAIN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK MIGHT HAPPEN?

>> I THINK THE SYSTEM, THE REGIME, THE ECONOMY, IT IS BRITTLE.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT IN THIS MOMENT, WITH MISSILES AND DRONES FLYING OVER IRAN, THAT THERE WILL BE THIS, YOU KNOW, PHOENIX RISING AND IRANIANS WILL TAKE TO THE STREETS IN AN ORGANIZED, MILITARY WAY TO TAKE DOWN THE REGIME.

THERE ARE SCENARIO THAT'S COULD EMERGE IF THIS BECOMES PRO LONGED.

YOU CAN SEE THE MILITARY CHAIN OF COMMAND ASSERTING MORE AUTHORITY.

THAT'S THAT A POSITIVE OUTCOME.

YOU WANT TO FURTHER MILITARIZE IRAN'S STEP TO A MILITARY ONE.

IT WON'T LEAD TO A PEACEFUL OUTCOME FOR ISRAEL OR THE BROADER REGION OR FOR THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

I THINK MUCH DEPENDS ON HOW THINGS PLAY OUT.

AND IRANIANS HAVE THE EXPERIENCE OF LIVING THROUGH A PROTRACTED WAR FROM 1980 TO 1988, AT A TIME WHERE THE REVOLUTION HAD JUST OCCURRED.

I THINK THAT THE SYSTEM WILL TRY TO HUNKER DOWN, PLAY FOR TIME, AND PLAY FOR IRANIAN NATIONALISM AND WAIT THIS OUT AS BEST THEY CAN.

THIS IS A CLEAR DANGER FOR IRAN.

THERE ARE NO EASY EXIT RAMPS.

THERE ARE NO REALALIZE FOR IRAN, EITHER.

SO IT IS HARD TO SEE HOW THEY WALK DOWN FROM THIS.

>> DO YOU THINK THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO COULD HAPPEN.

THAT IRAN HAS BEEN DEALT ALL THESE SETBACKS, THE INDIGNITY, THE ASSASSINATIONS, CLEARLY, FREE SKIES FOR ISRAEL OR WHOEVER ELSE WANTS TO BOMB ITS FACILITIES.

DO YOU THINK THE WORST-CASE SCENARIO COULD HAPPEN.

RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON, ACCORDING TO ALL THE INSPECTORS.

BUT IT MIGHT DRIVE ITS PROGRAM EVEN FURTHER UNDERGROUND, METAPHORICALLY, NO INSPECTORS, CUTTING ITSELF OFF FROM ANY KIND OF INTERNATIONAL REGIME AND GO FOR THE BOMB?

>> WELL, THESE ARE THE NONMILITARY SCENARIO THAT'S HAVE BEEN PUBLICLY DISCUSSED FROM THE IAEA INTO THE ANALYTICAL COMMUNITY.

IRAN HAS VERY CLEARLY STARTED TO INVEST FOR QUITE SOME TIME IN ITS UNDERGROUND FACILITIES.

THEY'VE PROBABLY ALREADY MOVED CENTORY FUGITIVES.

THEY CAN KICK OUT INSPECTOR.

FROM THERE, IT IS GOING TO TAKE MONTHS, NOT DAYS TO WEAPONIZE.

THEN WE WILL BE AT A POINT OF NO RETURN.

AND ISRAEL'S AIM OF PREVENTING IRAN'S SO-CALLED WEAPONIZATION IS GOING TO BECOME A REALITY.

SO IT IS VERY UNCLEAR IF THIS ATTACK WILL ADDRESS ISRAEL'S SECURITY DILEMMA AND LEAD TO THE WEAKENED IRAN THAT THE UNITED STATES, THE REGION, PERHAPS, ARE HOPING FOR.

IT IS CERTAINLY UNCLEAR THAT IT WILL DELIVER THE BIG DEAL THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CALLING FOR.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW REPUBLICAN U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON POSTED, ISRAEL DECIDED IT NEEDED TO TAKE ACTION TO DEFEND ITSELF.

THEY WERE CLEARLY WITHIN THEIR RIGHT TO DO SO.

WHILE HIS DEMOCRATIC COUNTER PART, HAKEEM JEFFRIES, CALLED OUT WHITE HOUSE FAILURES TO DELIVER ON DIPLOMATIC PROMISES IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND ELSEWHERE, PRESIDENT TRUMP INSISTS THE U.S. WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE STRIKES BUT HE IS THE FIRST PERSON PRESIDENT TO ALLOW AN ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, IN THIS CASE, NETANYAHU, TO DO WHAT HE'S WANTED TO DO FOR DECADES.

HE SAID HE SPOKE SEVERAL TIMES TO NETANYAHU BEFORE AND AFTER THE STRIKES.

WHAT WILL THE ATTACK MEAN FOR AMERICA'S NATIONAL SECURITY?

AS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE, WENDY SHERMAN WAS LEAD NEGOTIATOR WITH IRAN FOR YEARS OVER THE 2015 NUCLEAR DEAL, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM MASSACHUSETTS.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WHAT IS YOUR IMMEDIATE CONVERSATION?

YOU'VE HEARD THE CONVERSATIONS FROM THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER, IS THIS GOING TO WORK?

IS THIS ATTACK GOING TO WORK, DO YOU THINK?

>> YOU KNOW, AS I WAS LISTENING TO BOTH THOSE CONVERSATIONS, I THOUGHT ABOUT THE REACTION THAT WE ALL HAD AT THE BEGINNING.

U.S.

INVASION OF IRAQ AND THE SHOCK AND AWE MOMENT WHEN WE ALL THOUGHT THE U.S. WOULD COMPEL EVERYTHING TO HAPPEN IN THE WAY WE WANT IT TO.

AND THEN OF COURSE THINGS START TO UNWIND IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY.

I THINK WE ARE STILL AT A PLACE WE DON'T KNOW HOW IT WILL WORK OUT.

AND WE ALL NEED TO BE CIRCUMSPECT.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT ISRAEL HAS DONE A LOT TO DECAPITATE MILITARY.

I AGREE WITH YOUR LAST GUEST THAT THEY WILL QUICKLY REPLACE THESE PEOPLE.

I THINK YOU KNOW, AS WELL AS, IF NOT BETTER THAN I, EVERY TIME THE COUNTRY IS ATTACKED, IT CREATES A NATIONALIST FERVOR AND WE'RE SEEING THAT ON THE STREETS OF TEHRAN TODAY AND THE DEATH TO ISRAEL AND THE DEATH TO AMERICA.

AND I THINK THE THING FROM YOUR PRIOR CONVERSATIONS THAT SHOCKED ME THE MOST IS WHAT SHOCKED YOU AS WELL.

THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK SAYING IT WOULD ONLY SET THEM BACK A MONTH.

IF THEY ARE ABLE TO ENCOURAGE THE U.S. TO GET INTO THIS, IT COULD BE DESTROYED.

ALL OF THIS IS TO SAY WE ARE AT A DANGEROUS MOMENT.

I'M SORRY THAT DIPLOMACY DID NOT WORK.

THAT DONALD TRUMP HAD NOT WITHDRAWN FROM THE ORIGINAL JOINT CONFERENCE OF PLAN OF ACTION.

>> I KNOW.

IT BEGGARS BELIEF.

NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TOLD AXIOS THAT HE THINKS THESE ISRAELI STRIKES COULD MAKE IRAN BE MORE SERIOUS ABOUT NEGOTIATING.

YOU HAVE SAT IN THE ROOM WITH THEM.

YOU'VE NEGOTIATED FOR YEARS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

GIVEN THAT THEY ARE IN A WEAKENED POSITION NOW.

>> THERE'S NO DOUBT THEY'RE IN A WEAKENED POSITION.

ER IN IN A RESISTANT ECONOMY.

I THINK THIS PROBABLY INCENTIVIZES WHAT I CALL THE HARD HARD LINERS IN IRAN TO GO ACTUALLY FOR A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

I KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME ANALYSTS OUT THERE WHO BELIEVE THAT SINCE ISRAEL CAN'T COMPLETELY GET RID OF THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM, BUT CAN OBVIOUSLY CREATE GREAT BLOWS TO IT, THAT EVENTUALLY, IRAN WILL HAVE TO GET BACK INTO THE NEGOTIATING ROOM AND THEY MAY HAVE TO AGREE TO A DISMANTLEMENT OF THEIR PROGRAM.

I THINK WE'RE A LONG WAY FROM THAT POINT.

THIS IS NOT WHO IRAN IS.

I WISH THAT WERE THE CASE.

I DO NOT SEE THAT HAPPENING.

>> QUICKLY, ISRAEL BELIEVES IT WOULD POTENTIALLY BE ABLE TO EFFECT REGIME CHANGE.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S LIKELY AT THE MOMENT?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S LIKELY AT THE MOMENT.

I THINK COUNTRIES COME TOGETHER, EVEN IF THEY DON'T INITIALLY AGREE WHEN THEY ARE ATTACKED BY OUTSIDERS.

THE REGIME IS QUITE GOOD AT OPPRESSING ITS PEOPLE.

THE U.S. IS NOT INTO REGIME CHANGE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP DIDN'T WANT WAR.

AND WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE 40,000 AMERICAN TROOPS IN THE REGION WILL BE ATTACKED.

WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE WILL BE ACTS OF TERROR EVEN HERE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

THERE IS A LOT TO UNRAVEL HERE.

I HOPE IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION BUT I THINK IT IS A VERY DANGEROUS TIME FOR THE REGION.

OIL PRICES ARE ALREADY UP.

THEY MAY LIKELY GO HIGHER.

THAT'S NOT GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY OR THE WORLD ECONOMY.

THERE IS A VERY TOUGH MOMENT.

>> AND THEN IT TAKES CREATIVE LEADERSHIP TO TRY TO COME TO THESE DEALS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS TO COME TO.

I WANT TO READ YOU WHAT HE SAID, WHAT HE WROTE.

I GAVE IRAN CHANCE AFTER CHANCE TO MAKE A DEAL.

I TOLD THEM IN THE STRONGEST OF WORDS TO JUST DO IT.

NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRIED, NO MATTER HOW CLOSE THEY GOT, THEY JUST COULDN'T GET IT DONE.

I WONDER IF YOU COULD PARSE THAT FOR ME.

BUT I'M ALSO SITTING HERE THINKING, SINCE THE INAUGURATION IN JANUARY, TRUMP HAS SAID THAT HE WILL END THE GAZA WAR.

HE WILL END THE UKRAINE WAR.

RUSSIA'S ATTACK ON UKRAINE.

AND WILL THAT HE'S SOMEHOW GOING TO GET THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AND TRY TO GET ANOTHER DEAL WITH IRAN.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS HAVE GOTTEN WORSE SINCE TRUMP HAS BEEN IN OFFICE.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN ACCOMPANIED BY THIS KIND OF LANGUAGE.

I'LL DO IT IN THIS AMOUNT OF TIME.

AND WILL THEN IF THEY DON'T DO IT, IT IS THEIR FAULT, NOT MY FAULT.

HOW DOES THIS WORK?

>> I THINK YOUR TALKING POINTS ARE RIGHT.

THIS IS THE WEAKEST STRONG MAN IN THE WORLD.

HE PRETENDS TO BE SOMEONE WHO CAN GET THINGS DONE IN A DAY'S TIME.

AND OF COURSE, ALL OF THESE TAKE MORE TIME.

AND HE'S BASICALLY HAD ONE PERSON, STEVE WIT COUGH, A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS PLAN BUT NEW TO DIPLOMACY, DOING ALL THREE OF THESE THINGS.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.

HE HAS GOTTEN RID OF GENERALS.

HE HAS GOTTEN RID OF VIRTUALLY ALL THE AMBASSADORS IN THE REGION.

HE'S ONLY REPLACED THE AMBASSADOR IN ISRAEL.

HE HAS GOTTEN RID OF MANY PEOPLE IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

THE TOOLS OF DIPLOMACY, INCLUDING FOREIGN ASSISTANCE, AND MANY DIPLOMATS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

THERE IS NO NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER EXCEPT AN ACTING ONE, MARCO RUBIO, WHO HAPPENS TO BE SECRETARY OF STATE.

IT IS PRETTY HARD TO GET ALL OF THERE DONE WITH THAT SCENARIO.

I KNOW AMERICANS ARE TIRED OF WARS AROUND THE WORLD.

THEY WOULD A PEACEFUL OUTCOME.

BUT DONALD TRUMP HAS SHOWN HE DOESN'T HAVE THE ABILITY, THE PATIENCE, THE TOOLS OR THE WHERE WITH ALL TO DO ANY OF THIS.

>> CAN WE FLIP BACK TO THE JCPOA.

THE NUCLEAR DEAL.

MANY PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS AN OKAY, GOOD BUT NOT PERFECT ARMS CONTROL DEAL.

OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS AWFUL.

THAT IT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN DONE.

YOU CAN NEVER DO THAT KIND OF THING.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT HOW HARD IT WAS TO ACHIEVE EVEN THAT?

AND WHAT IT BROUGHT IN TERMS OF SURVEILLANCE WHILE IT WAS OPERATIONAL?

>> THE NEGOTIATIONS, THE VERY IMPORTANT NEGOTIATIONS, TOOK ABOUT 18 MONTHS.

YES, IT WAS NOT A PERFECT DEAL.

IT GAVE US A LONG TIME FRAME, NOT ONLY TO VERY MUCH CONSTRAIN IRAN'S ENRICHMENT PROGRAM, THEIR STOCKPILE, WHAT KIND OF CENTRIFUGES THEY COULD USE.

BUT VERY IMPORTANTLY, THE INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC AGENCY HAD VERY STRINGET CAPABILITIES.

NOT ONLY ELECTRONICALLY BUT PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

ALL OF THAT WILL BE GONE NOW.

IRAN WILL KICK OUT ANY INSPECTORS, GET RID OF ANY MONITORING AND VERIFICATION.

WE WILL EYES ON WHAT IS GOING ON IN IRAN.

THEY WILL SEEK TO GO UNDERGROUND AND IN SECRET.

IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT, THE NEXT ROUND THAT ISRAEL TRIES.

WE'LL SEE WHERE THIS GOES BUT NEGOTIATIONS OF THIS DETAIL, OF THIS COMPLEXITY, CANNOT GET DONE IN TWO MONTHS' TIME.

>> AND BRIEFLY, BECAUSE WE'RE ALMOST OUT OF TIME.

YOU KNOW THE NEGOTIATIONS ON THE IRANIAN SIDE.

DO YOU THINK THEY OVERPLAYED THEIR HAND WHEN THEY WERE OFFERED WHATEVER TRUMP OFFERED THEM?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY WERE OVERPLAYING THEIR HAND.

THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE IN THE MIDST OF A DISCUSSION OF A NEGOTIATION OF A BACK AND FORTH OF THE ONE WHO LED THE NEGOTIATION, WHO WAS MY COUNTER PART DURING THE JCPOA.

VERY SMART, VERY TOUGH.

WE'LL SEE WHERE IT ALL GOES FROM HERE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR EXPERTISE.

YOU WERE IN THE ROOM.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> NOW ALONG WITH THIS NEW WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS GEARING UP FOR A MILITARY PARADE AT HOME THIS WEEKEND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN DECADES.

OSTENSIBLY, IT IS FOR THE ARMY'S 250th BIRTHDAY WHICH ALSO HAPPENS TO FALL ON TRUMP'S BIRTHDAY.

HE FIRST GOT A TASTE FOR MILITARY PARADES BACK IN 1.0 WHEN PRESIDENT MAC RON INVITED HIM TO VIEW THE BASTILLE DAY POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE DOWN THE CHAMPS-ELYSEES.

TRUMP CAME BACK HOME WANTING TO STAGE SUCH A THING IN THE UNITED STATES.

MANY ARE SKEPTICAL, EVEN SOME REPUBLICANS ABOUT, THE COST AND THE OPTICS, ESPECIALLY SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP SENT THE NATIONAL GUARD AND THE MARINES TO CALIFORNIA AGAINST THAT STATE'S WISHES.

GENERAL STANLEY McCRYSTAL HAS A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF MILITARY CULTURE AND HE'S WRITTEN A FLAW BOOK CALLED "ON CHARACTER."

HE SPOKE WITH WALTER ISAACSON JUST BEFORE ISRAEL'S STRIKES ON IRAN.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THIS BOOK, "ON CHARACTER," YOU SAY CHARACTER IS A CHOICE WE HAVE.

HOW SO?

>> IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, CHARACTER AS I TRY TO DESCRIBE IT IN THE BOOK IS A COMBINATION OF THE THINGS YOU BELIEVE IN, THE THINGS YOU'LL LIVE TO OR DIE FOR, AND THE DISCIPLINE YOU HAVE TO LIVE UP TO THEM.

YOU CAN HAVE ALL THESE HIGH FALLUTING CONVICTIONS, THEY'RE MEANINGLESS.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE DOCUMENT AS OUR BELIEFS.

THEN WE GET TO DECIDE HOW WE BEHAVE.

WE SOMETIME STRUGGLE AND MOST OF US FALL SHORT ON A PRETTY CONSTANT BASIS.

BUT WE GET TO PICK OURSELVES UP EVERY DAY AND TRY TO DO BETTER THE NEXT DAY.

>>> YOU TALK ABOUT IT BEING CONVICTION AND DISCIPLINE.

I WORRY ABOUT THEM.

THEY DON'T HAVE A MORAL COMPASS.

ISN'T THAT PART OF THE EQUATION?

>> YEAH.

I PUT THAT IN CONVICTIONS.

I THINK YOU CAN HAVE CHARACTER AND IT CAN BE BAD CHARACTER.

WE TYPICALLY DESCRIBE CHARACTER AS GOOD.

IF YOU SAY, WALTER ISAACSON HAS CHARACTER, THAT WOULD BE VIEWED AS POSITIVE.

BUT SOME PEOPLE HAVE EVIL CONVICTIONS.

THEY HAVE BELIEFS THAT ARE ANTI-ATHLETIC CAL TO WHAT I BELIEVE.

BUT THEY HAVE ALL THE CONVICTIONS IN THE WORLD.

TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEONE WHO IS A COMPLETE OPPORTUNIST.

ALL THEY'RE OUT FOR IS THEMSELVES.

BUT THEY DO IT IN A DISCIPLINED FASHION.

THEY DON'T DEVIATE FROM IT.

THEY'RE CONSTANTLY AT IT.

WE MAY FIND THEM DESPICABLE BUT SOMETIMES EFFECTIVE AT WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO.

>> I JUST SAW GOOD NIGHT AND GOOD LUCK.

HE'S SORT OF THE HERE OVER OF THE PLAY.

REAL HERE OVER, WHEN IT SAYS HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

IT WAS A PERIOD LIKE TODAY.

>> I GO BACK TO REMEMBERING THE McCARTHY ERA LASTED LONGER THAN WE WOULD LIKE TO PRETEND IT DID.

HE HAD A PRETTY LONG RUN OF DOING A LOT OF DAMAGE.

AND FINALLY IT TOOK THE HEARINGS OF PEOPLE WHO HAD IT UP TO HERE WITH HIM.

AND THEN THIS OFFICIAL FROM THE ARMY BASICALLY USES THAT GREAT LINE.

BUT THE REALITY IS, IT IS HARD TO DO THAT.

SO I WISH SOMEBODY WOULD STAND UP.

I WISH SOMEBODY WOULD SAY, WE ARE DOING THINGS WITH AND TO OUR ARMY THAT I THINK ARE POTENTIALLY VERY, VERY DAMAGING FOR A LONG TIME.

>> ARE YOU REFERRING TO THE DEPLOYMENT, IT'S MARINES, BUT THE DEPLOYMENT OF NATIONAL GUARD AND MARINES FOR DOMESTIC PURPOSES IN LOS ANGELES THIS WEEK?

>> THAT APPEARS TO BE LAWFUL, ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK IT IS WARRANTED BUT I'M NOT ON THE GROUND TO JUDGE.

WHAT I'M MORE DETERMINED ABOUT, THE POLICIES, FOR INSTANCE, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE WHERE SENIOR OFFICERS WERE REMOVED FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

THAT THEY HAD SUPPORTED DIVERSITY.

THAT THEY HAD FOLLOWED THE THINGS WHICH WERE THE POLICY OF THEIR SERVICE, OR THEIR JOB WHEN THEY WERE DOING IT.

YOU CAN ALWAYS FIRE GENERALS.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH FIRING GENERALS FOR INEFFECTIVENESS OR ANY OTHER SHORT-COMING.

IF YOU FIRE THEM FOR POLITICAL IDEOLOGY, THEN I THINK WE ARE SENDING A DANGEROUS MESSAGE ACROSS.

>> YES, IT'S A DANGEROUS MESSAGE.

ISN'T A STEP IN SOME WAYS TO A AUTOCRACY OR SOMETHING IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT OR WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE OF DOING THAT TAKES A CERTAIN POWER THAT WE'VE NOT SEEN BEFORE IN OUR SOCIETY.

>> IT CERTAINLY LOOKS LIKE THAT.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE EFFECT, REMEMBER, OF FIRING A FEW, OR IN THE CASE BACK OF DURING THE SOVIET EMPIRE, ARRESTING A FEW PEOPLE, CERTAINLY BRINGS EVERYBODY ELSE INTO LINE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ARRESTS HERE BUT WHEN YOU REMOVE PEOPLE AND SHOW ANYONE IS VULNERABLE TO THAT, PEOPLE WHO HAVE JOBS, POSITIONS THAT THEY HAVE WORKED A LONG TIME TO GET ARE LIKELY TO SHAPE THEIR BEHAVIOR TO FALL INTO LINE MORE EASILY.

I THINK WE SEE IT IN THE SENATE.

PEOPLE WILL PUT MONEY TO YOUR PRIMARY OPPONENT OR DO OTHER THING THAT WILL CAUSE YOU NOT TO BE RE-ELECTED.

THE SAME OCCURS IN A DIFFERENT WAY TO PEOPLE IN UNIFORM.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION THAT THE SACRED RELATIONSHIP THAT THE U.S. MILITARY HAS HAD WITH THE CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT AND SOCIETY.

I SAY SACRED.

IT'S NOT BEEN PERFECT.

IT HAS BEEN LARGELY A-POLITICAL.

IT'S BEEN PRETTY PROFESSIONAL IN THE SENSE THAT THE MILITARY FOCUSED ON THAT WHICH THE MILITARY SHOULD DO, COMPLETELY RESPECTED, APPOINTED OVER THEM, AND THEN DID NOT ACT AS ANY KIND OF AN INFLUENCE ON OUR POPULATION.

DIDN'T POLICE OUR POPULATION OR PERCEIVED AS A THREAT.

>> SO YOU THINK IT IS DANGEROUS THAT THEY ARE NOW POLICING OUR POPULATION.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA.

IF THEY BECOME AN EASY TOOL TO USE, THEN THE ABILITY TO CONTROL OUR POPULATION, IT RUNS PRETTY COUNTER AGAINST WHAT PEOPLE WHO ARE STRONG BELIEVERS IN THE SECOND AMENDMENT BELIEVE STRONGLY IN.

TO HAVE THE ACTUAL U.S. MILITARY OUT ON STREETS SHOULD BE VERY UPSETTING TO THE NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT GENERALS BEING FIRED, IT STARTED WITH THE GENERAL OF THE JOINT CHIEFS.

I THOUGHT THE MILITARY'S FIRST LOYALTY WAS TO THE CONSTITUTION.

BUT IT MAKES IT SO NOW THEY HAVE TO BE LOYAL TO THE POLITICAL LEADER IN POWER.

IN THIS CASE, PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> YES.

AND LET ME SAY, LEADERS SHOULD BE LOYAL TO THEIR BOSSES.

THEY SHOULD FOLLOW LAWFUL ORDERS.

THEY SHOULD NOT DO THINGS THAT ARE DISLOYAL BEHIND THEIR BACKS.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE ULTIMATE LOYALTY IS TO THE CONSTITUTION.

THE ASSUMPTION HAS ALWAYS PEN THAT HE IS A CHIEF EXECUTIVE THAT REPRESENTS THE VALUES HAVE TO CONSTITUTION AND THE LIMITS THERE IN.

SO THERE WAS NO DANGER IN BEING VERY LOYAL TO THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF BECAUSE THAT WAS IN FACT BEING LOYAL TO THE CONSTITUTION.

WHEN THOSE DIVERGE IN ANY WAY, THEN I THINK YOU HAVE GREAT DANGER.

MANY PEOPLE LONG IN 1936 IN GERMANY, THEY CHANGED THE OATH.

THE OATH OF THEIR ALLEGIANCE FROM THE CONSTITUTION TO THE FUHRER.

SO WHENEVER YOU PERSONALIZE ULTIMATE LOYALTY, I THINK YOU HAVE THE DANGER.

YOU'RE NOT QUITE SURE WHAT KIND OF LEADER YOU'LL HAVE WIELDING THAT POWER.

>> YOU BEGAN YOUR BOOK WITH THE INCIDENT IN WHICH YOU WERE HAVING SOME TIME WITH THE ROLLING STONES REPORTER.

YOU WERE AND YOU SAID SOME THINGS ABOUT PRESIDENT OBAMA, VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN.

AND THEN WHEN IT HIT THE PRINT, YOU GO INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AND YOU OFFER YOUR RESIGNATION.

YOU SAY IN THIS BOOK THAT YOU'VE CHEWED ON THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

TELL ME WHAT LESSONS ON CHARACTER YOU LEARNED FROM THAT?

>> I HATE TO RE-CORRECT THE STORY.

THE STORY WAS NOT ONE THAT I THOUGHT WAS ACCURATE AND IT DIDN'T DEPICT ME AS SAYING THOSE THINGS BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER.

A NEGATIVE STORY CAME OUT.

I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FACT THAT MY BOSS GETS THIS EXPLOSIVE STORY ON HIS DESK.

I THOUGHT IT WAS ME RESPONSE .

I KNEW I WAS RESPONSIBLE.

I SHOULD ACCEPT THAT RESPONSIBILITY.

I FLEW BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

MET WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA WHO WAS GRACIOUS.

I OFFERED MY RESIGNATION AND HE ACCEPTED IT.

WHEN I SAY THAT I CHEWED ON IT LATER, I HAVE NEVER SECOND-GUESSED THE DECISION TO RESIGN.

I AM CONVINCED FROM THE MOMENT THE STORY CAME OUT THAT THAT WAS REQUIRED AND I'VE BEEN CONVINCED EVER SINCE IT WAS THE RIGHT AND ONLY RIGHT ANSWER.

WHAT I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IS, SORT OF WHAT IF?

WHAT IF THE STORY HAD NEVER COME OUT?

WHAT IF LIFE HAD BEEN DIFFERENT?

WHAT IF WE HAD NOT HAD THAT REPORTER AROUND AT ALL?

AND THEN WHAT IF I HAD RESPONDED DIFFERENTLY TO THE EXPERIENCE?

IN REALITY, THE MOST IMPORTANT IN MY LIFE IN RETROSPECT IS THE MOMENT AFTER THE PRESIDENT ACCEPTED MY RESIGNATION AND MY WIFE ANNIE, WHO YOU KNOW, SAID WE'RE GOING TO FACE FORWARD.

I SAID I HAD RESIGNED AND HE SECOND IT.

AND SHE SAID GOOD.

WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN HAPPY.

I WAS GOING TO BE A BITTER GENERAL WHO GETS INVITED TO LUNCH SO PEOPLE CAN HEAR A STORY.

BECAUSE NOBODY CARES.

WHAT I DECIDED TO DO WAS TRY TO MOVE FORWARD IN A MANNER THAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER MET ME BUT HEARD ABOUT THE STORY WOULD SAY, WOW, THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE WHAT I HEARD ABOUT IN THAT STORY.

OR PEOPLE WHO HAD KNOWN ME AND COMMITTED THEMSELVES TO SERVE WITH ME DECIDED THEY WEREN'T WRONG.

THAT THE PERSON THEY ALWAYS BELIEVED IN WAS THE REAL PERSON.

I HAD TO PROVE THAT EVERY DAY.

I'M STILL DOING THAT.

I'M 70 YEARS OLD.

IT'S 15 YEARS ON.

THERE ARE DAYS IT IS HARD.

IT'S NEVER BEEN THE WRONG DECISION FOR ME.

>> THERE IS A PART OF BOOK THAT IS VERY HONEST.

YOU HAVE A CHAPTER ON FAITH AND YOU DO IT THROUGHOUT THE BOOK.

LET ME READ YOU SOME OF IT.

FOR MOST OF MY LIFE, I BELIEVED IN GOD.

I AM NOW LESS SURE THAN I ONCE WAS, BUT THE HABIT OF ACCEPTING THE CONCEPT WAS TAUGHT, I WAS TAUGHT AS A CHILD IS STRONG ENOUGH THAT I REFLEXIVELY ACCEPT THE IDEA OF A DEITY.

WHEN IT COME TO CHARACTER, IS IT GOOD TO HAVE DOUBTS AND TO QUESTION THINGS?

OR IS IT IMPORTANT TO HAVE JUST FAITH?

>> I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE DOUBTS.

FAITH SCARES ME A BIT.

ONE DEFINITION OF FAITH SAYS TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING YOU CAN'T PROVE.

THE PROBLEM IS THERE ARE A WHOLE BUNCH OF THINGS THAT I CAN'T PROVE BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TRUE.

SO I THINK FAITH, IT'S COMFORTING IN SOME WAYS.

THAT'S WHY I ALMOST ENVY PEOPLE WHO HAVE THIS COMPLETE FAITH.

BUT I THINK IT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO QUESTION EVERYTHING.

IT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO SEARCH OURSELVES, TO SEARCH OUR VALUES, TO SEARCH WHAT WE HEAR, TO DOUBT THE THINGS THAT ARE PUT IN FRONT OF US.

ONLY WHEN WE PRESSURE TEST THEM DO I THINK WE COME OUT WITH AN ACCURATE APPRAISAL OF WHETHER IT IS RIGHT FOR US.

>> THE NAME DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T APPEAR IN THIS BOOK AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER READING IT.

AND YET EVERY QUESTION OF CHARACTER GOES TO THE HEART OF WHAT PEOPLE EITHER FEEL GOOD OR BAD ABOUT HIM.

YOU ENDORSED HIS OPPONENT.

WAS THAT PARTLY ON CHARACTER GROUNDS?

>> IT WAS ENTIRELY ON CHARACTER GROUNDS.

IN FACT, I DIDN'T AGREE WITH MANY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S POSITIONS.

I DIDN'T AGREE WITH ALL THE REPUBLICAN PARTY POSITIONS.

I WAS VERY MUCH IN THE CENTER.

WHEN I LOOKED AT THE CHARACTER OF THE TWO CANDIDATES, ONE HAD BEEN VICE PRESIDENT, ONE HAD BEEN PRESIDENT ALREADY.

I MADE THE JUDGMENT THAT THE CHARACTER OF THE VICE PRESIDENT WAS BETTER.

AND I THINK THAT YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT A PRESIDENT WILL HAVE TO FACE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF UNEXPECTED THINGS THAT ARISE.

I DON'T WANT TO ELECT SOMEBODY BASED UPON THEIR POSITION ON TAXES OR TARIFFS OR THIS.

A LOT OF THAT WILL CHANGE.

WHAT I REALLY NEED THE PRESIDENT TO BE IS A MORAL LEADER FOR THE COUNTRY.

AND I ASSESS THAT VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WOULD DO THAT BETTER THAN HER OPPONENT.

>> WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR THING ABOUT THE CURRENT PRESIDENT IN TERMS OF THE HONESTY OR THE COMMITMENT THAT PARTICULARLY STRUCK YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE A BIG BODY OF KNOWLEDGE.

I DON'T THINK HE IS THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEMS.

IF YOU GET UP IN THE MORNING AND YOU RESENT THE PRESIDENT FOR THE WAY THINGS ARE, I THINK THAT'S MISPLACED.

HE IS A SYMPTOM.

HE IS A SYMPTOM OF AN EROSION OF CHARACTER IN OUR COUNTRY.

WE AS PEOPLE ALLOWED THAT CHARACTER TO ERODE FOR LOTS OF REASONS.

>> WAIT, WHY?

WHY DO YOU THINK WE LET THAT ERODE?

>> I THINK WE BECOME BEWITCHED BY CELEBRITY.

FASCINATED BY WEALTH.

WE ARE CAPTIVATED BY THE FACT THAT SOMEBODY COMES OUT AND SAYS, WE CAN GET THINGS DONE.

WE'LL DO THIS.

I USE THE EXAMPLE SOMETIMES IF, IF YOU LIVE NEXT DOOR TO THE SPARANOS OR TO VITO CORLEONE AND YOUR DAUGHTER GETS TREATED BADLY BY SOMEONE, YOU CAN GO NEXT DOOR AND GET IT FIXED.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO TO THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SELECTIVENESS TO THAT IDEA.

WE'RE GOING TO GET JUSTICE.

WE UNDERSTAND SOCIETIES CAN'T WORK THAT WAY BECAUSE THE SAME PERSON WHO CAN DO THAT DOES ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT MAKE OUR SOCIETY WEAKER.

SO WE AS AMERICANS DON'T DEMAND CHARACTER.

WE HAVE DECIDED TO ACCEPT LESS.

WE HAVE THE STRANGE SITUATION WHERE A POLITICIAN WILL COME ON TV.

THEY WILL LOOK IN THE CAMERA AND SAY SOMETHING THEY KNOW IS UNTRUE.

AND THE FUNNY THING IS THEY KNOW YOU KNOW IT'S UNTRUE.

BUT WE HAVE THIS AGREEMENT WHERE BECAUSE THEY'RE POLITICIANS, WE SAY THEY HAVE TO LIE BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR POSITION.

NO.

WE DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT IT.

WE DON'T AT ALL HAVE TO SEMIIT.

WE COULD SAY NO.

YET WE HAVE ALLOWED OURSELVES TO ACCEPT THAT'S THE WAY THINGS ARE.

AND I THINK THAT IS A GREAT DANGER TO US.

>> TOMORROW, SATURDAY, THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF YOUR BELOVED INSTITUTION, THE U.S. ARMY.

GENERAL WASHINGTON HELPED CREATE IT BACK THEN, 250 YEARS AGO.

IT IS BEING CELEBRATED IN WASHINGTON BY A PARADE.

WITH M-1 TANKS AND FIGHTING VEHICLES, 7,000 SOLDIERS MARCHING.

IN SOME WAYS, IT REMINDS ME, I SAW SOME OF THOSE MILITARY PARADE THINK IN MOSCOW WHEN I WAS A YOUNG CORRESPONDENT.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S AN APPROPRIATE WAY TO BE CELEBRATING?

>> IT THERE IS A BETTER WAY.

FIRST, IF I WAS GOING TO CELEBRATE THE UNITED STATES ARMY, I WOULDN'T HAVE ANY TANKS, ANY HELICOPTERS, ANY MISSILES.

ANY DICTATOR AROUND THE WORLD CAN BUY THOSE THINGS.

I WOULD HAVE JUST AMERICAN SOLDIERS.

BECAUSE ONLY AMERICA CAN FIELD AMERICAN SOLDIERS.

THAT'S OUR CROWN JEWEL.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE CHEERING.

THEY DON'T DO AS MUCH DAMAGE TO THE STREETS AS WELL.

THE REALITY IS, IF WE WANT TO FOCUS ON THE 250th ANNIVERSARY OF THE ARMY, AND I THINK THAT'S GREAT.

LET'S PUT THE SOLDIERS OUT.

LET'S CELEBRATE THEIR SACRIFICE, THEIR HEROISM, LET'S FOCUS THAT.

IF WE DO THAT, IT COULD BE A TREMENDOUS REINFORCEMENT FOR THE FACT THAT THAT FORCE IS A MIRROR OF OUR SOCIETY.

WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF IT AND THEY SHOULD BE COMFORTED BY THE FACT THAT WE BELIEVE IN THEM.

>> GENERAL STAN McCHRYSTAL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WASHINGTON AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.